To: my friend who supported Prop 8 but won't actually allow others to talk with her about it

[jan_andrea]

Honey, I'm sorry you're feeling persecuted. I really am. I think hatred or vitriol towards any individuals involved in the situation is wrong.

HOWEVER.

Posting links to Mormon sites that moan, "Oh, we're so persecuted! People are picketing our churches!" is a non-sequitur. The LDS church bankrolled a hell of a lot of negative advertising that *truly did* make misleading claims in order to scare the uninformed into voting for Prop 8. They tried to -- and in many cases, succeeded in -- using pressure tactics to force their members into voting for it (which you well know).

Those are facts. "Oh, we're so persecuted!" does not change the FACT that they FIRST persecuted others in a very legitimate sense (i.e. not merely picketing and protesting, but actually removing rights!) who are simply trying to have a normal life. IT IS WRONG TO TAKE AWAY CIVIL RIGHTS. PERIOD. Two consenting adults who want to become a family and are not otherwise legally barred from doing so (i.e. siblings, whatever) should not be forced to separate by a religious group or a group of religions; religion DOES NOT belong in legislation. If the Mormons or the Catholics or whoever doesn't want to marry gays and lesbians in their churches, that's fine! Nothing in CA state law was going to force them to! All these people want is to have families like heterosexual families have them, with the rights and responsibilities that go with them. Just because your Prophet says no doesn't mean that people *not even in your church* have to abide by his rules.

Personally, I don't care if Joseph Smith appeared to you in a rain of gold and said unto you, "Vote YES on Prop 8 or face immortal hellfire!" It's still not right for your religion (and others like it, lest it be said that I am singling out Mormons; Catholic hierarchy is just as guilty) to force that decision on an entire state.

I need to know that you understand this. You voted to take away another person's rights based solely on what you were told by your church, as far as I can tell. That's what I can see.  If you didn't vote for it, GREAT! Keep me as a friend and I will put it behind me. But if you did vote for it, I really want you to take me off your friends list. I genuinely do. I think that (if you voted for it) what you did was incredibly wrong. Amazingly so. I can't live with that. I'm not going to defriend you until I know for sure what actually happened. If you don't defriend me, I will assume that you voted against it, and YAY! that would be great and I won't say another word about it. But I expect you to be honest about this; if you can't stand by your vote, how much *worse* is that than the actual vote itself?

Comments

[redemptionsongs.livejournal.com]

I understand your position and I respect it. I know that nothing I say will change your mind, just as nothing you can say would change my mind. Our beliefs are a part of us, I know that it is probably impossible to see things from my POV because it is so different and I can honestly say that it would be impossible for me to see things from an atheist POV (not trying to say that your POV is uniquely atheist in this instance). I understand that,I accept it, I am at peace with that. This isn't something that I've wanted to debate with anyone, but you asked in your post if she would own up to her vote and I am owning up to mine with no shame.

[jan-andrea.livejournal.com]

Well, you've put me in a quandry. I respect that you will at least own up to your vote, but I completely disagree with it and it's one of the things that I just can't abide -- taking civil rights from groups just because they're a minority.

Hypothetical question: if the vote had been 50 years ago and it was to ban interracial marriage (which so many, 50 years ago, felt was a threat to "traditional" marriage), and the Church came out and said, "The Prophet does not approve of interracial marriage and you need to vote against its availability", where would your vote have been? I want to hear a sincere answer, not a politically-correct one. If the vote was now and was to keep atheist couples from marrying (since, after all, we don't hold traditional Judeo-Christian values and don't see marriage as a sacred institution, since nothing is literally sacred to an atheist) and the Church said, "Atheists should not be allowed to marry because their definition of marriage disagrees with our teachings", how would you vote? If, 150 years ago, there were a measure to allow polygamy and the church had not yet banned it, where would your vote be... and where would your neighbors' vote be?

If you can honestly answer me that your vote in the first two cases would be different from your current vote... I don't know what to say, other than you would seriously be cherry-picking your religion and even more hypocritical.

I like you as a person, but I think I am going to have to keep to my word and end this relationship. I can't abide by anyone blithely removing others' civil rights based on what I see as amazing hypocrisy. Let he who is without sin, etc.

[redemptionsongs.livejournal.com]

I understand, I know that I would most likely be unfriended when I responded.

As to your question about interracial marriages and marriages between atheists- I would vote my conscience (which would be to allow) because there is not specific doctrine that addresses either of those things. IMO, support for 8 and 102 were upholding the Family Proclamation which was given to us in 1995 through the Prophet and First Presidency as a result of modern day revelation. I understand that this proclamation doesn't mean anything to you, but to me it is important and should be upheld by members who believe that it is. For reference, the text can be read here: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,FF.html

I wish you the best! See you around :)

[jan-andrea.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the good wishes. Likewise :)

And, I hope you're never in a position to have your rights taken away by a majority that doesn't agree with you ;)

[mercy-rain.livejournal.com]

upheld by members who believe that it is and forced by them upon others who don't...