To: my friend who supported Prop 8 but won't actually allow others to talk with her about it

[jan_andrea]

Honey, I'm sorry you're feeling persecuted. I really am. I think hatred or vitriol towards any individuals involved in the situation is wrong.

HOWEVER.

Posting links to Mormon sites that moan, "Oh, we're so persecuted! People are picketing our churches!" is a non-sequitur. The LDS church bankrolled a hell of a lot of negative advertising that *truly did* make misleading claims in order to scare the uninformed into voting for Prop 8. They tried to -- and in many cases, succeeded in -- using pressure tactics to force their members into voting for it (which you well know).

Those are facts. "Oh, we're so persecuted!" does not change the FACT that they FIRST persecuted others in a very legitimate sense (i.e. not merely picketing and protesting, but actually removing rights!) who are simply trying to have a normal life. IT IS WRONG TO TAKE AWAY CIVIL RIGHTS. PERIOD. Two consenting adults who want to become a family and are not otherwise legally barred from doing so (i.e. siblings, whatever) should not be forced to separate by a religious group or a group of religions; religion DOES NOT belong in legislation. If the Mormons or the Catholics or whoever doesn't want to marry gays and lesbians in their churches, that's fine! Nothing in CA state law was going to force them to! All these people want is to have families like heterosexual families have them, with the rights and responsibilities that go with them. Just because your Prophet says no doesn't mean that people *not even in your church* have to abide by his rules.

Personally, I don't care if Joseph Smith appeared to you in a rain of gold and said unto you, "Vote YES on Prop 8 or face immortal hellfire!" It's still not right for your religion (and others like it, lest it be said that I am singling out Mormons; Catholic hierarchy is just as guilty) to force that decision on an entire state.

I need to know that you understand this. You voted to take away another person's rights based solely on what you were told by your church, as far as I can tell. That's what I can see.  If you didn't vote for it, GREAT! Keep me as a friend and I will put it behind me. But if you did vote for it, I really want you to take me off your friends list. I genuinely do. I think that (if you voted for it) what you did was incredibly wrong. Amazingly so. I can't live with that. I'm not going to defriend you until I know for sure what actually happened. If you don't defriend me, I will assume that you voted against it, and YAY! that would be great and I won't say another word about it. But I expect you to be honest about this; if you can't stand by your vote, how much *worse* is that than the actual vote itself?

Comments

[redemptionsongs.livejournal.com]

I am not who you are referring to and I generally keep quiet on these things, but I do understand where she is coming from, just as I understand your position. I did not vote for 8, but I did vote for 102 here in Arizona. I did not vote that way out of hate or bigotry, I voted that way because marriage between a man and a woman is an important part of my faith and like it or not, my faith and the way I operate on a daily basis and vote are intertwined. FWIW, I would not have an issue with voting for an initiative that made *all* unions done by the state civil unions with the benefits of traditional marriage and left marriage entirely up to religious institutions, but that is not what I was asked to vote on and I do not feel bad for using my right as a voter to vote the way I felt was right.

I think the point of the blog entry that she posted was to show that people of our faith are being singled out as terrible bigots who hate people, but that the reverse is acting pretty hypocritical. The hate for the LDS church is *blatant*, whereas (at least here) ads supporting the initiative were not hateful. I did not see one single piece of hate propaganda against homosexuals, but it is okay to mark the outside walls of our temple? No way, not okay at all.

My faith is very important to me. I have numerous ancestors who gave up everything they had, even their lives because they felt so strongly about their beliefs and if the hardest thing that I have to do for those same beliefs is vote in a way that makes some people angry then I am okay with that.

Again, put an initiative in front of me that abolishes marriage by the state, replaces it with a legal contract (civil union) and leaves it up to churches to marry someone and I'll vote for it, not before then.(and I completely understand if you feel the need to unfriend me because of my position, fair enough.)

[brunahildm.livejournal.com]

Did you see Keith Olbermann's piece on Prop 8 (etc)? It's quite eloquent and I totally don't understand how anyone can want to take rights away from people and NOT consider themselves bigoted. Really glad that ACLU is challenging the validity of voting on it as amendment when it is of such magnitude.

Here's the Olbermann piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY

[rock-grrl.livejournal.com]

As a Canadian, I am appalled that your state even had a vote on allowing or disallowing people's civil rights to be taken away. Civil rights for a minority group should not be decided by the majourity simply because state or federal governments are too chicken shit to take a stand for their citizens' rights. Shame on them!

If it helps at all, legally all states must recognise marriages that take place in Canada (as far as I am aware) and in Canada (ALL of Canada), gay/lesbian people can marry.

Here is a shout out of 'FUCK YOU' to all of those who voted to take away a person's civil rights! If you're SO against same-sex marriages, then don't marry someone of the same sex. Simple as pie.

[tahoebean.livejournal.com]

I fucking love you, Jan. ;)

[justsurvive.livejournal.com]

can i just clear one thing up? its not the church that donated whatever amount of money for ads and whatnot. it was the people in the church. very different.